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Zero Tolerance Magazine • View topic - ISSUE #025 - On Sale Now
 

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<  ZT Magazine Talk  ~  ISSUE #025 - On Sale Now

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:38 pm Reply with quote
User avatarIntolerantIntolerantJoined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:27 pmPosts: 651Location: Behind you...
Cover at http://www.ztmag.com - contents to follow shortly 8)



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:55 am Reply with quote
User avatarZero ToleranceZero ToleranceJoined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:18 pmPosts: 6315Location: Landscape XX
Environmental Special. Thats quite a good idea, but i'd prefer to see a Dubstep special :P



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:19 pm Reply with quote
User avatarIntolerantIntolerantJoined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:27 pmPosts: 651Location: Behind you...
Contents up on the main site now.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:01 am Reply with quote
User avatarZero ToleranceZero ToleranceJoined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:18 pmPosts: 6315Location: Landscape XX
I'm going to post a serious topic now. I hope none of you mind :wink:

I have to admit I felt a small amount disappointment at hearing this. I assumed it was going to be full of BM bands telling me why they like walking in the woods, and Gojira trying to convince me that they would be protecting whales and saving energy if they wasn't busy making music :roll:
I hoped that I was just being negative however reading the issues special features only confirmed my suspicions. Just to make my intent clear i'm merely stating I feel ill-at-ease with most of the bands comments not the fact ZT did a environmental special. As ever you've made a fantastic mag :D

This leads me to something i'd like to ask you all. Does anybody else feel dissassociated with the worlds current interest in the environment? It might just be my knee-jerk reaction to anything the general populace and its benevolant leaders take an unwavering interest in but how do you feel about global warming and your place in its apparent creation? Do you feel as if it's something that must be tackled and everyone should do their bit to aid? Or (like myself) do you think mankind is deluding itself in thinking that our species is powerful enough to dictate the course of life and the planet we live on?

There was that one individual called Atratus (vocalist from the band called Tronus Abyss) who summed-up my way of thinking to a degree. I'm not saying this man is a visionary or genius or anything like that. I just wanted to use his words to adequately express my place in the world, as a living thing. I find the popular idea that our species is ultimately responsible for the outcome of the planets future very arrogant and misguided. Our actions might destroy us but the planet will continue along the same path its been taking since its formation billions of years ago.
I've mentioned my ideas to other people and many of them balk at the suggestion that we might be extinct some day, it's almost unthinkable to some that one day our species will end. But surely i'm not the only one who finds the idea that we are vaguely interesting blip in evolution extremely liberating. We don't need to save the planet. And if we don't save ourselves what in the greater scheme of things (if theres even a scheme at all) does it matter?

Sorry to get all end-time apocalyptic on your asses but i'd like to read your opinions on the matter. Do you feel as positive as I do about being an unimportant animal in an uncaring universe? Also, a slightly less important matter, about Gojira. Is it just me or do they seem like the eco-warrior equivelant of Rage Against The Machine? :P



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:19 am Reply with quote
User avatarHighly IntolerantHighly IntolerantJoined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:13 pmPosts: 1195
Not read the issue so i'll just comment on Bellys' heavy literature smackdown for a saturday morning.

I'm with you on that humans will go on and live forever, looking how far we have come the theory that we will become extinct is just stupid to be fair.
Though i feel everyone should do their bit to help conserve the Earth. With so much natural beauty to be seen by future generations i wouldn't want my kids/gran kids to grow up in a world that is void of such things and i want them to be able to see animals from all walks of life. Having children might change peoples outlook on certain things.
Think the problem is finding a happy medium, all this global warming etc... is shoved in our faces and to a certain degree blown out of proportion with the claims that they make that it kind of makes you begrudge doing your bit. They are trying to raise awareness which is good but i feel they're doing it the wrong way. People need an incentive that has an impact on them at the present, most of us probably won't see the demise of the world if it was to come round.

Couldn't decide if Belly would like us to conserve Earth for its natural beauty or if he would like a mad max world?

Having said all that, i'm sat here eating a tuna sandwich which probably has more dolphin than fish, on a laptop with skysports news on the HD screen, a hi-fi system on with an amp that chews up electric for fun with the curtains shut and a light on as don't like reflections on the screen.
I am drinking fairtrade coffee though. :oops:



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:33 pm Reply with quote
User avatarHighly IntolerantHighly IntolerantJoined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:21 pmPosts: 1561Location: Kentish Town, London
One point I picked up on Bearded Trout was that Belly was saying humanity will die out someday whereas you seem to agree but then state "I'm with you on that humans will go on and live forever, looking how far we have come the theory that we will become extinct is just stupid to be fair." Not a criticism, just a point.

I truly believe humanity will die out one day, of course it will. I do kinda accept your point Belly that why should we think we have the power to alter the future of our planet and its ecological situation as it has been floating around space fine for 4.5 billions year (or 4000 years for the creationists, pah!!!), but if it is being scientifically shown (and I believe its true) that we are currently affecting the ecosystem of our planet, how could it be that we can't affect it in a positive way in the future? I think humanity should and needs to realise its power in being able to make a change for the good of the environment. It's fair to say we've had a negative influence by and large however it's a little Utopian to think we can have largely positive impacts in the future. I think we have to try though like BT said, because I don't want to see the beautiful features of our country and world disappear under concrete, or rising sea levels, to name just two situations.

Of course, saying we should do more is a very different proposition to actually making a damn difference though and trying to co-ordinate 6 billion with polarised views on the environment is next to impossible so really its a case of everyone doing what they can and the authorities that have the power trying to enact sustainable policies that are designed to benefit the environment, not anyone or anything else.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:52 pm Reply with quote
Maximum ToleranceMaximum ToleranceJoined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:29 pmPosts: 4
Heh, well speaking as a 36 year old with no children and I live in the north of England then I'm none too fussed about global warming.

To be honest you can bang on and on about it until you're blue in the face but people will just ignore you. It's the same with supermarkets, tell people how they ruin the local economy, that 271 local jobs disappear as soon as a supermarket moves into a town, etc, etc, etc, and they'll nod in agreement but still go to Asda to do the weekly shop.

Same with McJob culture and how they should protest against the rise of job agencies that rip off peoples rights, about how education standards should rise in this era of globalisation in order to fight off business competition from China, etc. And again the parents nod but then dose back off into a land of soaps and reality shows.

Which is fine by me as I'll be fighting their children for jobs before long so the competition wont be that stiff from what I've seen recently.

So you can go round 'doing your bit' if it makes you happy but in the overall scheme of things it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. At least not until there is serious agreement between world powers and government initiatives that punish/scare folk into actually doing something.

Until then every tree you save will be offset by the 100 killed off by the general populace, anyone for pissing into the wind?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:55 pm Reply with quote
User avatarStaffStaffJoined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:38 pmPosts: 1008Location: UK, London
i don't think personal action (e.g. turning your telly off standby or not having more than one light on in the house at a time etc) makes or will make much difference.

however, talking about environmentalism, promoting it, debating it, making governments realise *they* are the only ones capable of putting ideas into real actions - *that* makes a difference.

it's happening already - very very slowly - but governments are slowly starting to listen and to do something about it. let's not pretend they are doing this for the good of the environment though... they're are doing it to keep voters happy and to keep us churning out our cash for various government funded experiments. businesses start up selling us environmentally-friendly produce - and the wheel of commerce keeps turning. that's a cynical but realistic understanding of the situation, but the end-goal is the same, whatever everyone's motivation, and that's gradual environmental improvement.

that said let's be even more realistic about this. the planet cannot be "improved". what *can* happen is that we can return it to something more stable. i think that's all we can really hope for. it's clear that science has proven that our ecosystems have become totally unstable and unpredictable, and that that *is* in part due directly to humans, not purely by some natural cycle of nature's various chaotic elements (although that's doubtless a part of it). we can therefore conclude that it should be possible, if not entirely feasible, to sort things out, to at least a small degree.

the idea that we're here to "improve" the earth is quite absurd. we're just another organism altering our environment for our needs and wants. it's just that unlike practically every other organism on the planet we don't respect the environment enough by trying to live within it sustainably, and the impact we have on it is immense. it is the height of human stupidity and defines us quite profoundly against our apparent close ancestors from whom we are supposed to have "evolved" (used in a literal but loose sense).

so, from my point of view, we are a collective, and so yes, we are directly responsible, each of us, for the sustainability of our environment. but i think our voices will end up being our most powerful tool, as ultimately it's going to be up to the governments of the world to make any kind of real change. and even then it will have to benefit *them* somehow (financially i expect) if they are to do it on a scale that will affect things long term.

however there's no doubt that money is probably the biggest factor in the success (or lack of it) of environmental action. choosing not to fly, in a small way means less money for airlines, less money for governments and therefore the chance of change should increase as said governments scramble to increase consumer confidence and control the people they govern. same deal with boycotting supermarket chains, big business produce companies (the macdonalds, nescafes and kellogs of the world). stop feeding the businesses (that includes governments, for what are they if not enormous businesses!) and they will eventually have to bend to your will, or fall completely, in which case we'll end up with a return to "the wild" anyway!



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:59 pm Reply with quote
User avatarStaffStaffJoined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:38 pmPosts: 1008Location: UK, London
on a slightly lighter note the news section was fucking hilarious this issue! :lol:



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:51 am Reply with quote
User avatarZero ToleranceZero ToleranceJoined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:18 pmPosts: 6315Location: Landscape XX
Jesus christ. I was expecting the usual replies about Best-Mans willy. Instead I see a topic with intelligent discussion. Thats not right :lol:



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:38 pm Reply with quote
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I suppose that I'm in the conflicted opinion of being heavily into environmentalist concerns but ultimately seeing it as being pretty futile. Without some serious changes in human existence, we're going to run out of any one (if not more) of the three main requirements we have (fuel, food and living space) in a relatively short space of time.

Whether global warming is entirely our fault is debatable (I'm of the opinion that there're natural cycles in global temperatures but that our habit of digging shit up out of the ground and then setting fire to it probably doesn't help) but the fact that we're exhausting our main source of fuel is unavoidable. Alternative fuel sources, whether they be more advanced nuclear systems or solar/wind/wave renewables, are being investigated at a rate that I believe is too little, too late. Food and clean water are abundant on the Earth but the machinery to transport them (whether it be the physical movement or the political desire to share resources) just doesn't exist. The collapse of Zimbabwe from a net-exporter of food to a dustbowl has hit Africa hard and I don't think we've seen the worst of that yet. The global population is fast approaching 7 billion (predictions say we'll hit it in 2011) and the rate of population increase itself is increasing. Increased population will lead to increase competition, increased conflict and (I believe) the increased rise of fundamentalism of various types.

I share Belly's opinion in that all we will do is to destroy ourselves and that, in the long run of geological time, the Earth won't give a toss about whether we're here or not. Ideas that have been dismissed as crackpot or ridiculously sci-fi (efficient power systems based on fusion/hydrogen cells/solar, space-elevator/skyhook technology, off-world colonies) should've been started by now but we've been stymied by religious mumbo-jumbo and wasted our time/effort on pathetic infighting. I see our decline as inevitable, to be honest, and I just hope that we don't take too many other species with us.

That said, it's become my nature to try and limit consumption. I've not owned a TV in nearly 10 years and not only don't own a car but have never learned to drive. I also recycle even though the local council seem to want make it increasingly hard to do so. On a wider scale, I volunteer for charities and can be quite disgustingly positive and humane...

Thnkfully, I don't have any children, nor the desire to have any, so my main reasons for being interested in environmentalism are the aforementioned sadness at the impact we have on other species and the selfish desire to live in a clean and pleasant world. I enjoy hiking and being in the wilderness but, increasingly, I see streams in the Scottish highlands that are clogged with plastic bags and other rubbish. People are quite happy to throw their food wrappers or fag ends on the floor without a second's thought and, although I try and think more about the huge acheivements we've made in art and science, I can't say I feel that sad about the demise of a species like that.

I've made myself depressed now.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:29 pm Reply with quote
User avatarHighly IntolerantHighly IntolerantJoined: Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:21 pmPosts: 1561Location: Kentish Town, London
A most excellent post Gaendaal, very thought provoking. I feel I tried to express a number of similar points but without making it as diligently so. Im very different in that I do have kids (which brings a totally different perspective on life), a car (couldnt live without it, ashamedly so but then I do have the kids) and a rarely-watched TV.

But like you, I am pessimistic about the future of the Earth and our impact on it without wanting to be, because we've been so fucking useless to make any real changes thus far. There is so much opportunity in harnessing wind/sea/solar power but whats happening there? Solar panels are deemed too expensive for wide-scale implementation and off-shore wind farms an 'eyesore'. This of course espoused by the same people who will sit there and bemoan our lack of efforts for being 'green' (i.e. Daily Mail readers). If we want to make a difference we need to put some of our other petty interests and unimportant feelings and opinions to the back to just getting on with what we need to do. It really worries me the world population figures and how we have governments ruled by religion, with all that's brilliant and well-crafted opinions on well, everything. (Please note the sarcasm). The world will be fucked for a long time, and two major reasons for that, are that governments don't have their interests in the right places, and too many have religion if not at the heart, but very close to it.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:58 pm Reply with quote
Maximum ToleranceMaximum ToleranceJoined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:29 pmPosts: 4
In the words of Kurt Vonnegut:

“If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy.”


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